00:00:01 Intro
00:00:31 Mary McCaughey
Welcome to this edition of Eurofound Talks. Today Eurofound talks children, specifically children and their well-being. We know that fighting child poverty has become a central dimension of EU policy. We know it’s a major challenge for the European Union. Children are our future, and within the EU we certainly have made it one of the flagship social policy initiatives: the European Child Guarantee, which was established in 2021 by the Council Recommendation, whose aim is to tackle essentially child poverty. We want to ensure that they have access to key services such as care and healthcare, but also resources like decent housing for children across the European Union. We want to ensure that we’re really targeting those who are facing poverty and exclusion. I think we have seen some improvements, and nearly one quarter of children are at risk of poverty or social exclusion in 2022, which is better than it was before, but 20 million children are at risk of social exclusion. That is a lot of children. So the Child Guarantee is of course supporting European Pillar of Social Rights. We know that the social rights pillar is really the building block for trying to get us back on track across the entire social agenda. In Principle 11, which is on childcare and support to children, we’re looking at children needing access to early childhood education, good-quality care and protection from poverty. We are also looking at children specifically from disadvantaged backgrounds, so that they have the rights to the specific measures that will allow them to move forward and ensure equal opportunities. We have seen EU Member States begin to move forward on this. We have begun to report on their action plans, and today is really an important time, because we’re beginning to take stock of the progress that is being made. I am delighted to be joined here by Daniel Molinuevo, who is our in-house resident expert on this topic. And you’re very welcome this morning, Daniel.
00:02:50 Daniel Molinuevo
Thank you very much. I’m delighted to be here, Mary.
00:02:53 Mary McCaughey
So let’s start, Daniel. I’ve given a rough overview, and that’s the big picture. But maybe you can really paint a picture of where we can start. We know the number of people who children who are in poverty, but we also know there are more at risk of poverty. How has this changed? What is the current situation, the status at the moment? And have we seen trends emerging post-pandemic?
00:03:18 Daniel Molinuevo
The EU has gone a long way when it comes to tackling child poverty in the last 10 years. Back in 2015, there were 22 million children are at risk of poverty or social exclusion, and now in 2022, the year for which we have the latest EU averages, we have around 20 million, as you say. If we look at percentages, the numbers within the percentages have changed, so it was 27.4% percent of children back in 2015, and now it’s 24.7%, so there’s a change.
00:03:49 Mary McCaughey
There is improvement.
00:03:50 Daniel Molinuevo
Yes, a lot of improvement, but it has not been a linear process. The pandemic has happened. So in 2020 it was 24%, then it went up to 24.4%, then it went up again in 2022 to 24.7%. So there has been an improvement, but the pandemic has really had a very negative impact in some Member States, it has to be said. So this success story is particularly thanks to what we could call a catch-up process. So back in 2015, there were countries that were well below the EU average when it comes to the living conditions of children. Their child poverty rates were much higher. In the particular case of Hungary, they have managed to bring down their child poverty rates massively, so that they are now closer to the average.
00:04:41 Mary McCaughey
And that was of course before the Child Guarantee.
00:04:43 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct, yes. So there’s been a lot of improvement in the countries that need it the most. And that’s the kind of development that we want to see, because we don’t want to have averages that improve, but then mask huge disparities between Member States. We want to have an ever closer Union. That’s one of the founding principles of the Union. We want to see that social cohesion, that convergence. So these improvements in child poverty rates are partly thanks to this catch-up process. I think it’s important also to go a little bit into the integrity of what we are talk about. We talk about child poverty. This is measured by looking at the percentage of children at risk of poverty or social exclusion. That includes not only looking at monetary poverty or a risk of poverty, but also looking at severe social and material deprivation. There are a number of items inquired about in EU-SILC, the survey done by Eurostat gathering this information about child poverty and also looking at the percentage of children living in households with very low work intensity.
00:05:45 Mary McCaughey
That’s with parents that are not employed, or with only one parent?
00:05:49 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct. So this we’re looking at a very holistic measurement of child poverty that unfortunately leaves out those children who are not living in households, like homeless children. So children who are facing the most extreme forms of poverty, they’re not captured by …
00:06:03 Mary McCaughey
They’re not captured at all?
00:06:05 Daniel Molinuevo
No. It’s a household survey, EU-SILC. That is an issue where the Child Guarantee can actually provide an improvement when it comes to data gathering and collection, because those are requests for Member States to improve their data monitoring systems. At the moment, when we talk about EU averages, we use Eurostat data, and this is the data that we have there.
00:06:24 Mary McCaughey
So just to be clear, Daniel, the data that you’re talking about, the analysis of that in terms of the granular detail that we’re looking at, that doesn’t capture those children who are homeless or part of an unstable housing background. But the data that says whether they’re at risk of poverty, that does include them.
00:06:41 Daniel Molinuevo
The household surveys only include the situation for members of the household. So we’re looking at monetary poverty, severe social material deprivation, and work intensity. Because this is a very complex indicator, we refer to it simply as child property, but there’s a lot to it. We have established in European Child Guarantee monitor, where we actually describe the trends in detail – not only for child poverty in general, but also for these dimensions that make up this measurement.
00:07:15 Mary McCaughey
But you’re talking there specifically about Hungary, for example. Can we see different trends in different Member States? Are you looking at the age-old differences between eastern European and Mediterranean, etc., or are we seeing different trends emerging across different regions?
00:07:37 Daniel Molinuevo
What we have done in this monitor is what we could call a convergence analysis. We not only look at EU averages, but we also look into what is happening at national level. Countries that have low child poverty rates have historically managed to improve their situation only slightly.
00:07:55 Mary McCaughey
But who would they be now?
00:07:56 Daniel Molinuevo
That would be the Nordics in particular.
00:07:58 Mary McCaughey
The Scandinavian countries?
00:07:59 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct. Sweden and Finland in particular have had very low child poverty rates. Historically, they’ve managed to decrease their child poverty rates, but only ever so slightly. We compare it to the massive improvements that we see in other countries that were in a far worse way back in 2015.
00:08:18 Mary McCaughey
As regards those regional trends within countries, are we able to see that, or look at what the difference is between rural and urban, for example?
00:08:26 Daniel Molinuevo
When we look at the reasons why there’s been this decrease in child poverty, it is also because there is a success story for rural Europe. Back in 2015, more than 30% of children were at risk of poverty or socially excluded in rural areas. To clarify, for the small print, it’s measured by Eurostat, looking at sparsely populated areas with fewer than 5 000 inhabitants. So there were more than 30% of children – almost one third of children – living at risk of poverty or social exclusion in rural areas back in 2015. And this has come way down, even with the pandemic, to less than one quarter – less than 25%, so that’s a massive success story in rural areas. It means that fewer children are in social exclusion than in urban areas, which was not the case before.
00:09:19 Mary McCaughey
Do we have an idea why that is the case? Because people talk about lack of access to good care services and healthcare in rural areas, or them being less adequate or available in rural areas. What is the answer to this?
00:09:33 Daniel Molinuevo
When we look at national trends, we all see that there has been a decrease in disparities in rural areas across Europe. So in rural areas in different countries, it would have been the case that some countries were really bringing the EU average down. We’re seeing this now. There’s more convergence. There are fewer disparities across Europe when it comes to rural areas. Whereas in urban areas, which is areas that have more than 50 000 inhabitants, it’s exactly the opposite: there are more disparities, particularly since the pandemic. So it’s an issue there of what is happening in some rural areas in some countries. There have been notable improvements in some specific countries in rural areas, and that is reflected.
00:10:17 Mary McCaughey
So essentially, one size does not fit all in these circumstances, in the sense that not the same thing applies to all rural areas, not all to all countries, etc. But Daniel, there have been improvements in rural areas, and in the countries that have the lowest rates (or the highest rates, depending on how you look at it). We’re seeing convergence to some degree. We’re seeing improvements. So what essentially brought about this decision to put the Child Guarantee in place, which is relatively recent when you consider that those improvements have been underway for some time?
00:10:55 Daniel Molinuevo
We need to go back to 2013, when there was a recommendation on investing for children, which recommended that Member States provide access to quality public services and to resources as ways to tackle child poverty. These recommendations did not have any funding for Member States to carry out these recommendations. 2013 was also the year in which the Youth Guarantee came about. So the European Parliament was looking at these developments, and back in 2015, in view of the weakening of public services, it called for the establishment of a Child Guarantee. The name is interesting; it shows that it’s related to the Youth Guarantee, seeing Youth Guarantee for children as a way to …
00:11:46 Mary McCaughey
Because the Youth Guarantee, clearly that’s dealing with older children, right? From 16 to 24, is it?
00:11:52 Daniel Molinuevo
It has changed since its review. There’s only an overlap when it comes to the 16 to 18. What’s interesting about the Youth Guarantee is that it has funding associated with it. It’s targeted to specific groups of young people: those not in education and training. It also has a very reduced set of measures: we’re not talking about tackling youth unemployment in general. We’re not talking about attacking child poverty in general. We’re looking at very specific measures with funding associated with it.
00:12:24 Mary McCaughey
To it and the goal there was very specific commitments to ensure that no young person in that bracket was without employment, training or education 6 months after?
00:12:36 Daniel Molinuevo
Yes. So that level of specificity, that’s what the Resolution of the European Parliament sought to bring about when it comes to tackling child poverty and ensuring that there were not only specific measures. It’s all about the specificity that the Guarantee was supposed to bring about. We’re also having some funding associated to it. So that’s 2015. Then we moved to 2017, when there’s a renewed call from the European Parliament to look at the feasibility of establishing a Child Guarantee. 2017 was also when the European Pillar of Social Rights is declared, so that seals the deal.
00:13:13 Mary McCaughey
It gave it some impetus.
00:13:15 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct, because as you mentioned at the beginning, there are links there with some of the principles that are enshrined in the European Pillar of Social Rights. So that all together brings us to 2021, when it is decided to have a Guarantee that has funding associated with it rather than linked to it. That was an important distinction, because the EU States can avail themselves of 5% of the European Social Fund to tackle child poverty in the period 2021-2027, but that is not conditional or directly linked to the Child Guarantee in the same way. Whereas the funding that was linked to or associated with the Youth Guarantee was dependant on whether you wanted to get funding for related Youth Guarantee – you had to have a Youth Guarantee national action plan in place. That is not the case because of the timing. The funding allocation for the European Social Fund Plus was decided before 2021 because it started in 2021, and so while it can be used, it is not dependent. I think we’ll talk a little bit more in detail about this.
00:14:23 Mary McCaughey
It will be interesting to see whether that’s beneficial or not in terms of that, right? But then in terms of the Guarantee, we talked a little bit about the Youth Guarantee, and what it guaranteed. What are the specific commitments that the Child Guarantee guarantees children?
00:14:39 Daniel Molinuevo
Free and effective access to a set of services. When you read the small print, it states in the recommendation that free actually means affordable, because it will be impossible to guarantee free childcare or customer care. Look at Ireland, where it is very costly. So we’re talking about reducing the cost and also looking at other areas of accessibility. It’s a multidimensional approach when it comes to accessibility in the following services: education and care, healthcare services, primary and secondary education. And they’re looking at having at least one healthy meal each school day. So that’s a set of services, but there’s also a series of dimensions or resources as you mentioned before, when we talk about effective – not free – access to decent housing and adequate housing and nutrition. So obviously we now have funding to guarantee access to this and housing, or adequate housing, to all children across Europe, but there’s an effort there to put in place measures to ensure that a group of children that are in a disadvantaged situation have better access.
Who are these children here? The term that is used is to me sounds a bit Dickensian. It’s called ‘children in need’, and that is defined as children at risk of poverty or social exclusion, hence the reference to those statistics before. But then there’s seems to be real confusion, because the recommendation lists a number of groups that could be relevant. Within the general risk reporting, social exclusion could be targeted as part of the Child Guarantee. So we’re talking about children with mental health issues, children from a foreign migrant background, or with a disability. There’s a long list there, and these are not strictly speaking, the target groups. The recommendation states that whenever relevant, these will be some of the groups that will be important to look at, so it’s more often than not.
00:16:40 Mary McCaughey
Exclusive to them, correct? Exactly.
00:16:42 Daniel Molinuevo
Of course, yes, Member States had actually asked to identify who these children are. Experiencing barriers to access, and it might be that the children …
00:16:50 Mary McCaughey
So the Member States are required to define …
00:16:52 Daniel Molinuevo
… identify the children who are facing barriers to access these services and resources the most in their country. And that is important, because you may have a group facing huge barriers in in one type of service, like for example, healthcare, but then they face different or fewer barriers in others than other groups. So that’s an important distinction to make whenever appropriate, because that is the responsibility for the state to identify and to tailor it. As you said before, one size does not fit all as to what sort of measures these are and for whom they are intended.
00:17:27 Mary McCaughey
But Daniel, is it not difficult, because you’ve just outlined there that when we talk about free access, it’s not free, it’s affordable? And when we talk about other resources, it’s effective. We’re not defining it so specifically. According to what you’re telling me here, it makes me a little bit worried about sanctions or about implementation indicators. How can we judge whether Member States are actually moving forward and progressing on this in any way?
00:17:54 Daniel Molinuevo
It’s a tricky one because it’s a very long list of services and resources that we’re looking at and how we measure it, in particular for very specific groups of children; that is a challenge. So the European Commission, together with the Social Protection Committee indicator group, has had a go at this and they’ve established a first version of a monitoring framework with a set of indicators. And Eurofound was the first organisation to provide an analysis of trends in this European target anti-poverty monitor of what is going well, what the situation is in some specific Member States, what these convergence and divergent patterns are. So it’s a difficult one when it comes to evaluating the Child Guarantee and also when it comes to evaluating or as you said, establishing sanctions, there are no sticks and carrots involved in this other than, for example, the European Parliament has a working group monitoring the guarantee. They were crucial when it came to approving a resolution of the European Parliament last year, where they named the countries that more than 2 years after the approval of the guarantee, had not set up a national action plan. So that’s a big delay, so their names were in that resolution, but other than that, there’s no conditionality.
00:19:17 Mary McCaughey
But there’s no transparency. In fact, there’s no implementation of any particular stick.
00:19:23 Daniel Molinuevo
No. the European Commission sent letters to Member States once they had submitted their national action plan. But these are more observations, and these letters are not made public.
00:19:36 Mary McCaughey
Every Member State is required to report on that on an annual basis.
00:19:39 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct. Every 2 years. So the deadline was March of this year for the first report, but as of today, only a handful of Member States have submitted implementation reports. There are a number of delays involved in in the role of the guarantee.
00:19:56 Mary McCaughey
But tell me then, we’ve seen that there’s some progress, and clearly there is progress, and that’s a very positive part of this discussion. But when we’re talking about specifics when it comes to what you talked about earlier, the health and nutritional needs of children, getting that one good meal a day – how are we seeing that? Is that in place? Are we seeing that progressing?
00:20:19 Daniel Molinuevo
So this was exactly this domain of healthcare, how difficult it is to monitor the rollout of the guarantee. We talk about health. We’re talking first of all about health status. What is the health of children and that involves, for example, subjective well-being or mental health. So in that area, we see that the situation has improved in the sense that there have been fewer disparities between Member States, but then when we look at it, do you average as a whole the percentage of children who report feeling low in mood on a regular basis more often? That’s one that I mentioned where we have this, these disparities are increasing the EU average. If we move to another indicator that has been approved, which is your general health status, then we see improvements both in terms of decreasing disparities, but also an improvement in the EU average. When we talk about the percentage of children that report being in very good health. And then when we look at the other piece of the puzzle, which is health status, we’re talking about access to healthcare. We look at the percentage of children who have unmet needs or healthcare services, meaning that they were not able to use healthcare services at all when they needed them, or who were not able to use healthcare services to the extent that they wanted or needed to. That has decreased. So that is a worsening. There are more children with unmet needs for healthcare services now than they were in the previous time that it was measured. I think the 2 years, 2021 and 2017.
00:21:59 Mary McCaughey
So that has increased.
00:22:01 Daniel Molinuevo
The percentage of children are the number of children whose unmet needs in healthcare have increased over time. So that is a very negative development. So that’s one area where we’re looking at services. We look at resources. You mentioned nutrition – one indicator that has been chosen is looking at daily consumption of fruits and vegetables. That is widely understood as being a good development when it comes to having healthier nutrition. And then we see improvements over time in the sense that are more now who have access on a daily basis, and there are also fewer disparities between Member States.
00:22:34 Mary McCaughey
Clearly it’s not a one-dimensional issue, because looking at so many aspects that impact on a child health and well-being –education is one of those, housing is one of those, the parents’ situation is one of those … so how are we seeing any actions in that area taking effect?
00:22:56 Daniel Molinuevo
So the Guarantee can actually make a big difference, even in services like education, where we would think, ‘Well it’s free, in most countries it’s compulsory.’ So where’s the issue of access here? Well there’s an issue called hidden costs. So it might be free to go to school, but then you need to wear clothes. You need to take part. You might want to take part in sports, extracurricular activities. So those things cost money. And so it’s important to have resources in place to tackle those hidden costs. And indeed the guarantee has been used by Member States, and we see it in a lot of national action plans to tackle those hidden costs. There are also children in need, as mentioned before. Yes, they do have legal access to education, but there’s a specific situation that makes it difficult. And here, are very good example is children from Ukraine. Children fled Ukraine with their with their families and now they need a set of additional resources in order to be able to use education. So we have seen the Child Guarantee being used to fund language lessons to help with extracurricular activities like summer camps. We’ve also seen changes in the legislation so that there can be more teachers’ assistance.
00:24:14 Mary McCaughey
Mental health services.
00:24:15 Daniel Molinuevo
And other health services. So even in those areas where we think ‘Is it really that difficult to access?’, there are indeed some barriers for some specific groups of children. And indeed, regardless of the level of accessibility and the funding available specifically to tackle child poverty, the European Social Fund Plus as a whole, because that’s why it was established for, can make a difference for professionals working in education, in areas of training when it comes to hiring new teachers and teachers’ assistants. So there’s a huge opportunity now with the European Social Fund to go beyond just this 5% allocation to tackle child poverty and use it to enhance the capabilities of the workforce and to improve the working conditions in general.
00:25:08 Mary McCaughey
And when you talk about working conditions there, we’re also looking at employment opportunities for the parents, I suppose, because that is a direct impact, the primary caregivers for these children and their well-being. So what’s being done there is there a direct link with those policies and the Child Guarantee.
00:25:23 Daniel Molinuevo
Yes. Indirectly, all the resources and services that are part and parcel of the Child Guarantee have improved the situation for children, but also their parents and household as a whole. One case that is very clear is housing. The same would apply also to any area where parents need to pay, be it healthcare or childcare or care. There’s one area that is brought up in the debates a lot in relation to work-life balance, which is early childhood education and care, which has massive benefits for children, but also for the parents, because that allows more adults in the household to participate in the labour market. So there we have seen that, thanks to the Child Guarantee, a lot of measures have been put in place, but also this is part of our wider effort at EU level to increase participation. There’s was a general revision or review of the so-called Barcelona targets in 2022, where more ambitious targets were set, and indeed we see an increase in participation rates. To what extent we can attribute this to the Child Guarantee or the Barcelona targets or to other aspects that have nothing to do with any of those, that is difficult to say.
00:26:38 Mary McCaughey
But they’re positively reinforced.
00:26:40 Daniel Molinuevo
Indeed, absolutely. And that is the main point here: even if we cannot infer causality, it all goes in the right direction.
00:26:47 Mary McCaughey
And tell me, Daniel, because there is a lot of good news in what you’re saying here. And there are the multidimensional but interconnected policies that are in place and are being used to really address the issue of child poverty and social exclusion. But you mentioned La Hulpe, which was a big conference recently where we were really assessing a lot of this, and there was a new declaration that was put in place. What are the next steps? What is the next step in this process which would see us hopefully reducing this 20 million further down over the coming years?
00:27:24 Daniel Molinuevo
The La Hulpe Declaration includes a section where they talk precisely about improving work-life balance, they talk about the European Pillar of Social Rights, they talk about early taxation and care. And then they also mentioned that it’s essential to ensure the implementation of the Child Guarantee, including the monitoring and evaluation of the guarantee. So now that there have been a number of implementation reports, we need to look at how we can improve accountability, how we can improve monitoring to ensure that the European Union is delivering the goods in this area. It is important that it featured in the La Hulpe Declaration, because it shows that this will not fade away with this mandate of von der Leyen. So von der Leyen made the Child Guarantee the flagship social policy initiative of the EU when it comes to her guidelines for 2019-2024 before she was appointed. So thankfully now we see that for the next 5 years they can …
00:28:28 Mary McCaughey
Regardless of who comes into the Commission.
00:28:30 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct. So for the foreseeable future now, we have an agreement that this is something important that needs to be looked at by the next mandate of the European Parliament. And also that we need to fulfil the targets that were set for 2030, so it’s a long game that we’re talking about when we talk about poverty targets – mostly for 2030. And also linked to the European Pillar of Social Rights. So this is where Europe can play a role, because we deliver a number of reports for the European Parliament.
00:29:04 Mary McCaughey
And we also have our monitor.
00:29:05 Daniel Molinuevo
Correct. So if Member States want to look at how they are doing, they can access those indicators and look at the trends from our website. And also we help with other areas that are less straightforward when it comes to monitoring at national level, where there are 27 different approaches to monitoring and evaluation, and so we brought together some lessons that could be applied in other countries. Candidate countries are also looking very closely at what’s happening with the Guarantee. And also that could help making lives of Child Guarantee national coordinators, easier because there’s a lot of reporting that is involved with this and a lot of coordinator with different levels of government and different departments.
00:29:51 Mary McCaughey
But as you say, Daniel, there’s a lot going on, there’s a lot to do. But when we look at the next steps, it is an important time. We’ve got this new European Parliament, elections in June, new college coming into the Commission. If you had one of these policymakers in a lift, as we do at the end of all of these podcasts, and you had an opportunity to put on the table three main issues that they should address to ensure that we do tackle this issue effectively, can you ‘talk to me in three’?
00:30:24 Daniel Molinuevo
The first thing I would say is we need to focus more on the workforce. We keep talking about developing services. So this is where in something abstract – it is important to bear in mind that investing in services which can be a one-off investment – you can fund the setup of a crèche or a kindergarten. That is different from the funding required to set up an adequate workforce. So we need to look as well at ensuring that well-qualified workers have all the accessibility and quality of services. So that’s an area where more can be done, where Europe can provide data through the European Working Conditions Survey, which is coming out with the findings early next year. When we have the information there about the levels of training, the job quality, motivation, issues like adverse social behaviour and other areas where funding from the Guarantee or the European Social Fund can make a difference.
Secondly, I think the whole issue of funding needs to be looked into more closely. Are we availing ourselves of all the funding that is available associated to the guarantee to the extent that we can? So we don’t know at national level. In the review we did to the national monitoring evaluation systems, the information we had about you funding and how to extend that is very patchy. So there are some who say that they’re going to look to you, some of them say what is earmarked. But when we talk about funding, we need to get more detail what funding is being used, for what, and to what extent. And I think the conditionality of funding and disability guarantee, that is something that will play a role in the next few years. There’s going to be a review of the guarantee in 2026. There’s already a resolution from the European Parliament asking for more and different funding in the sense that it is more directly linked to the rollout of the Guarantee.
And then thirdly, I think we need to look at the governance arrangements of the guarantee. Not easy being a Child Guarantee national coordinator. We’re looking at very different services. In 2017, only three areas were looked at. We’re looking at six in here. They are very different from one another. We’re talking nutrition, we’re talking about childcare, and these are the responsibilities of different departments at the same level of government, but also different levels of government in the centralised Member States. So there’s a lot of coordination to be done. There are very few sticks and carrots, as I mentioned there. So it’s important to support the coordinators, which is something that in Europe we have to contribute to, with the work that we have concluded this year.
00:33:08 Mary McCaughey
Thank you, Daniel. Three words of wisdom at the end. Governance, which is always important if you’re going to have an effective programme in place. Funding; making sure we access and exploit it effectively. And of course the workforce, because ultimately, to get that right, and we get an awful lot of other things right by implication. So thank you for that. We’ve really done a fairly broad picture tour of the Child Guarantee and how it’s panning out and operating across the European Union. As Daniel has referenced during this particular session, it touches on so many other aspects of what your event has done: gender equality, working conditions, job quality, skills, for example, but also well-being, mental health services, healthcare, etc. All of this information you can find Eurofound’s website, the most up-to-date data, the most up-to-date research which is available for you Eurofound’s website. You can also listen back to many of the podcasts which we have on these various issues, which are also available on our website, but you can also find them on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you access your podcasts on a regular basis. Please do sign up to our newsletter, but indeed also check out our Child Guarantee Monitoring Hub as Daniel referenced earlier, or follow us on social media channels. It was lovely speaking to you today, Daniel. And until next time, when Eurofound talks to you.
00:34:36 Outro
